The Liu Seong System and its History

liuseongcombatapplications-graphic-whiteI hold an orange sash, the instructor-level credentials, in Liu Seong Gung Fu. Liu Seong is an umbrella system, itself a hybrid martial art among the many Kuntao/Silat martial arts. It is as much Indonesian as it is Chinese and owes its methods to several different martial arts and martial influences, including Karate, the Filipino martial arts, and various Chinese Kung Fu systems. Some of the Filipino influence was added by my teacher, Sifu Dan Donzella, over the last four decades.

THE MAN

“Liu Seong” is a name taken by Willem A. Reeders (1917-1990), who is said to have been of mixed (and royal) Dutch and Chinese blood. Everything we know about him now comes second-hand, as he has passed and can neither defend himself nor verify what he did or did not claim in life.  We must, therefore, sort through a dizzying array of claims made by other people about Willem Reeders, some of whom may be repeating myth, rumor, or partial truths that have become increasingly distorted as they were passed along.

Willem A. Reeders

Willem Reeders is said to have begun his training at the age of 4, to have traveled to the Shaolin Temple in China at the age of 12, and to have been taught the Reeders family Kuntao system by an uncle. Accounts claim he had as many as ten silat teachers and that he studied Silat styles that included Tjikalong (Cikalong), Tjimande (Cimande), Harimau, and Serak. Other, possibly apocryphal tallies have him holding a seventh degree black belt in “Budozen Soundje Kempo,” a fifth-degree black belt in Shotokan Karate (some say sixth), and a 10th degree black belt in Kodokan Judo and Jiu Jitsu (I believe this last is quite impossible). He has been described as “adept” at aikido and kendo as well.

Another somewhat incredible account claims that Bruce Lee contacted Reeders (apparently while Reeders was living in New York). Supposedly Lee learned of Reeders through his friend and student Dan Inosanto. Reeders is alleged to have traveled to California to visit Bruce Lee and, while there, to have taken the time to catch in mid-air one of Bruce Lee’s punches. This story may have been told to imply that Jeet Kune Do was somehow influenced by Liu Seong’s martial arts system.  I’ve no idea where it may have originated.

You might wonder how such a super-powerful martial arts grandmaster finds one Phil Elmore in his lineage. (I wonder the same thing.) After World War II, Willem Reeders was somehow involved in the Indonesian fight for independence (or, at least, there are those who sayhe was). Of Dutch heritage, he fought on the Dutch government side (if indeed he was involved) and returned to Holland sometime after the Netherlands recognized Indonesia’s independence in 1949.

Sifu Dan Donzella with Sifu Gary Galvin

“Leaving the family wealth behind,” Willem A. Reeders traveled to Toronto, Canada in the late 1950s. Some time after that, he moved to Pennsylvania and then to Western New York, where he taught until the early 1970s. It was while he lived in Western New York that he taught Sifu Gary Galvin, my teacher’s teacher. If I remember correctly, this was between 1967 and 1970.

In the early 1970s, Willem “Liu Seong” Reeders moved to the arid climate of New Mexico seeking relief from chronic sinus problems. He lived and taught there until his death in 1990.

Sifu Gary Galvin, meanwhile, taught the Liu Seong system (in the form of Chuan-fa/Tjimande) to my teacher, Sifu Dan Donzella. I began training in the Liu Seong system under Sifu Donzella around 2003-2004.

THE SYSTEM

Sifu Dan Donzella Today

Liu Seong Gung Fu, as taught to me, is an infighting system that uses a variety of hand techniques, close-range standing grappling, low kicks, and brutal poking, ripping, gouging, and striking methods. Owing to its Silat heritage, Liu Seong Gung Fu is quite “blade aware,” which means training in the system has also made me competent with a knife. Other weapons that are part of the traditional Liu Seong system include the sai (tjabang), nunchaku (ruyung), and staff.

Traditional forms in Liu Seong include, but are not limited to, basic blocking and striking forms, a Shaolin form, “Four Point,” Kweetang, Hoc Chan (a finger-strike form), and eight forms of a simplified system of Pa Kua.

I don’t teach the traditional forms of Liu Seong Gung Fu or the Liu Seong System. I do, however, teach Liu Seong Combat Applictions, the pragmatic application of force for self-defense.

THE LEGACY

The lore would have you believe I’m a third-generation student of one of the most accomplished and deadly martial artists who has ever strode the surface of the planet. That may well be true, but there’s a darker side to the Willem Reeders lineage.  The man known as Liu Seong was, from most accounts, a harsh taskmaster who taught many students differently and reportedly told several among those students that he was giving them (and them alone) the complete, “real” system. This guaranteed that Reeders’ legacy would be one of politicking, bickering, and strife, forever setting his students and their students at each others’ throats.

In his later years especially, Reeders apparently selected his students primarily for thuggery. At least one or two of his first-generation instructors is said, in turn, to have taught his second-generation pupils with that much more brutality. The result of such a process is extremely deadly human beings, but I would not call the culture so created (or the one for which Willem Reeders may be ultimately responsible) something to laud. You respect a dangerous animal like a fighting dog because you understand how dangerous it is… but you shouldn’t be proud for having made it what it is.

I’m told that Reeders’ oldest son, William Reeders’ Jr., is or was the front man for a goth-punk band called “Cursed Ruin,” whose demo “Goat Urin” was released in New Mexico on cassette. (I’ve no idea to what extent he teaches.)  It’s very difficult for me to know what to make of this, but it may, if it is true, be an odd side-note to the life and work of an accomplished and extremely talented fighter who was often — in my estimation — a difficult human being to like.

Please understand that in saying all this, I mean no disrespect to Willem Reeders, his children, or his students. I am interested only in separating fact from fiction and in acknowledging the reality of the Liu Seong lineage.  Willem Reeders was an extremely talented fighter and martial artist; there is no denying that, and no account I’ve found to date indicates otherwise. The Liu Seong system as it was taught to me is the most practical and effective martial art I’ve studied, the art I decided to make my own after searching for years to find something that worked for me. Liu Seong has made me a competent martial artist and a capable armed citizen. That is a debt I can only repay by trying to impart to others what I’ve gleaned, but it is also a gift for which I am extremely grateful.

It is very easy to engage in hero-worship within the martial arts, venerating our teachers and holding them to white-washed and unrealistic standards. They were, as we are, human beings. They were neither all good nor all bad. Many of them, as many of us, were deeply flawed as people — yet what they taught can and is powerful, even beautiful, while it is also functional.

Recognizing your lineage for what it is means acknowledging the humanity of your teachers. We must never shrink from the facts. We must never turn away from the truth. Our focus, in all things martial, should be on the only rational goal where learning to fight is concerned: success in self-defense.

Everything else, if not meaningless, is less relevant.

39 thoughts on “The Liu Seong System and its History

  1. I was a student of Master Seong at his school in Albuquerque. I studied with him for 8 years and spent lots of time away from the dojo with him. I disagree with some of the things you say about him and understand that you have no first hand knowledge. However I would like to give you the opportunity to correct your understanding. Please feel free to contact me at nmwolfe@yahoo.com

    1. I meet Grandmaster Seong in the 80’s when I traveled with Master Sikes, students Mark Wadlington and Teacher Richard Jackson from Phoenix AZ. I also studied for a short period in Nevada and Arizona. I have been blessed to know both of these gentleman.

  2. Hi, this is Willem Jr. Im in potland at the time, Lary Wolfe is my friend, grew up with him around. What you say about dad inst true at all. He would take hunting trips with his friends and a lot of people just didn’t fit in his school. That happens in every kind buisness where 2 or more people get together.

    1. I’m pleased to hear that; the only information I have about the history of the system comes, obviously, second- and third-hand.

      1. Dad didn’t speak much English. He was difficult. To say the least. But he had his reasons. We all still love him, and miss him. And he has a grandson now. Willem Joshua Reeders. My boy is in Holland right now checking out the old stomping grounds. People are always starting or saying whatever. We know the truth. That can be seen in our love as Christians.We forgive.peace to you.

        1. I can be reached at KillemKoresh@gmail.com. If anyone wants to talk to me about my band or why Im into BLACK METAL feel free to correspond. OK, so 14 years of war in the Philippians, 4 years of capture by japs. And the backwards ways of the U.S.A. might make dad a misunderstood and not liked kind of fella. I’m sure that works both ways. He knew what you were. If he didn’t like you, there’s the door, or, there’s the floor. Ask Guy Savelli. He is a lucky man. Dad didn’t like him out of disrespect and look at the lies. Talk about being at each others throats. If dad was around, Guy would be done.

          1. Hey I seriously doubt nearly everything here, the posts by his so called son and all that. Mr. Reeders was my teacher in the late 60’s A son? news to me and the son would be a old man by now not in some kids metal band.

          2. I can confirm what Reeders Jr is saying when he speaks about being in a band. A friend of mine who is from the Presas and Sykes lineage who lives in Durango Colorado told me about this when I was sharing stories about his father that I was told.

  3. Hi
    I use to have a b/w film of Reeders & Wezel.
    The Reeders shown him doing a few things & jump kick on heavy bag.
    I lost contact with the Reeders line as i was homeless–I know Solomon–Sikes & Mrs Reeder have copies of the film. is ther a way i can get a copy back

  4. Greetings from Phoenix Arizona. I am of student of Master Michael and Phillip Selmon. Their master was Grand Master Arthur Sikes whom I believe was from Cleaveland. I was blessed to be taken under the tutelage of both masters and to learn an amazing art. Been learning since 2007 and training to be an instructor for the school. We have a school in Arizona and all students of Lieu Sean are welcome.

    1. Hello I lived with Master Sikes student Mark Wadlington, and 4 of the teachers children, as well as Donna in the 80’s. I did meet some of the other students while living in N. Phoenix. I also lived in Las Vegas and periodically took classes since around 81′. I was wondering if anyone ever saw Richard Jackson again (Tailib). I’m glad Grand Master Sikes teachings are still being carried forward. Slalom.

      1. Hello David,
        my name is sarah my father is William McCauley, he was one of Master Sykes students/ teachers. Master Sykes was his only teacher and he started with he was 15 I believe. He was close with Mark I believe. If its the Mark I’m thinking of I know him as uncle mark or Mark the shark. I know he was very close to Master Sykes and Donna. I grew up with his children as my “cousins”. I would go to the conventions at CSN and Master Sykes would stay at my house sometimes when he came into to town, or we would stay at the hotel with him. I was wondering if you knew my father and if you had any pictures of him or videos from back in the day

        1. Excellent. I meet Master Selmon around 86′ when I stayed for a brief period at Master Sikes home in North Phoenix. Teacher Richard Jackson, Weil McCauley, and student Mark Wadlington were all very helpful in my attempt in learning the these fine forms of Martial Arts. However, I was not as kind to myself, and failed miserably. Mark W has been a gracious and enduring friend for 40 years now. May the memory of Master Reeder and Sikes never dim.

    2. Excellent. I meet Master Selmon around 86′ when I stayed for a brief period at Master Sikes home in North Phoenix. Teacher Richard Jackson, Weil McCauley, and student Mark Wadlington were all very helpful in my attempt in learning the these fine forms of Martial Arts. However, I was not as kind to myself, and failed miserably. Mark W has been a gracious and enduring friend for 40 years now. May the memory of Master Reeder and Sikes never dim.

  5. Hi im chad drummond and a student of jerry bradigan many of the stories I hear liu seoung were incredible. But im just curious I know what he taught certain people are similar but also has differences. Im just wondering cause I see things of an orange and in the style mr bradigan was taught there were only four yellow green brown and black. Im just curious as if anyone knows the differences in what he taught to jerry bradigan as opposed to art sikes or gary galvin

    1. Howdy I have been trainning with Dave Dolbear(who has trainned with Gary Galvin) for sometime and was hoping to start a correspondance.

    2. Yup! The stories were amazing. I knew both Jerry and his brother Tom in the 70’s.
      Their studio was in Dunkirk near a brewery.

    3. Both Jerry and his brother Tom were lethal.
      I’ll give mention to Ed Seally.
      He taught my dear departed friend Tom Drake.
      I remember the stories of how Mr, Reeders May have taught different systems.
      I grew up on Chautauqua Lake in the late 69’s and early 70’s.

  6. Chad, I wonder the same things. I trained 4 years with his student Sam Lumia in Jamestown NY. The version I learned included those four main forms Larry named above, plus a Ho-Jon (sp) form, we had to learn each for a belt ranking. (Kweetang was brown belt form etc). Reeders taught others there Kun Tao and “Pukilan”, Sam plus there was a family system with secrets only to be taught to his offspring, although I know he showed some of it to a few closest. Anyway, I still wonder why those particular katas we selected as the curriculum, as they seem all to be from different styles from different areas.
    As to stories about Reeders not being a perfect person, I was surprised to hear that when he left town for NM, he didn’t tell his students he was leaving. However several brown belt caught him at home loading the vehicle. They demanded black belts, and Reeders said “Ok 50 bucks each”! . ( :

    1. Howdy I have been trainning with Dave Dolbear(who has trainned with Gary Galvin) for sometime and was hoping to start a correspondance.

  7. my brother tom drake was taught kun tao by ed seely. there is much controversy about who mr. reeders taught this style. i once met mr. reeders in alberquque with my brother. reeders was married to a good friend of seeley’s wife nancy. the house was vacant of any furniture other than a kitchen table. we sat and talked, but no martial arts out of respect. at the time reeders had sent two students out his house and across a sandy desert and into the mountains to survive for two weeks, a survival mission.

  8. My name is Will McCauley, Golden Boy of Master Art Sykes (original spelling of his name) inducted into Liu Seong Royal System along with Master Sykes and Robert Baker by Master Liu himself, from 1965 until his death I was a friend and student of Master Sykes traveling with, living with and studying with him. Master Seong knew exactly what he was doing, sewing confusion as the word comes from Kung Fu. Previous to Dunkirk ,Ny my knowledge is only what was told to me by Master Liu and Master Willy Wetzel but what I do know after is first hand experience.I saw him point yes point at a bird and bring it down. I also felt electrical shock like a stun gun from a touch. Master Liu besides being deadly was the most powerful (chi) human I have ever been privileged to meet. The man was in touch with the spirit and an enigma wrapped in mystery. That’s enough for now.

    1. Hello Will, long time no see. I talk to Mark W occasionally. Hope you are doing well. Those days of Van Buren Ave motels are far gone memories now. Living in Florence Oregon on the Pacific enjoying the golden years. RIP to Master Reeder, Master Sykes and to brother Dale. Peace

  9. The Bradigans claim Reeders stated in the late 60’s early 70’s that he never taught Kuntao.
    To the best of my knowledge Jerry Bradigan was regularly training Chaun Fa with Reeders until he died.Jerry Bradigans wife was taught Pukulan by Reeders.
    Also one of Reeders original students ONLY received a Blue belt. Yet he is regarded with esteem these days.
    I am unaware of how each “style” Reeders taught has rankings. I do know many are are ranked from an organization Reeders founded (in the 80’s or early 70′), I believe it was in Canada. Thus they are NOT ranked by style but from this organization.
    It is possible the Chuan Fa people actually have rankings in Chuan Fa instead from the other organization.
    Finally one should note that the Reeders Kuntao people rarely, if at all, communicate with other styles Reeders taught. Many people these days have associated themselves with the Reeders name for profit.
    As of today the truth will never be known as to what Reeders taught and to whom. The Bradigans are never asked regarding their opinions and knowledge. I am uncertain if the NM people are ever contacted. I have never read anything from his children or spouses.
    Finally the majority of those NOW associated with the Reeders name were NEVER involved when I was researching and speaking with people like the Bradigans and Sealy in the mid 90’s.Today the Reeders name seems like big money. Back then it was barely recognized.

    1. Some body got it almost right,,Studied with Bill in the mid sixties,i’m 74 now There are still Quite a few of us alive,,I was teaching when Jerry Bradigan started,,,He’s one of the finest men I have had the joy of knowing. A few of us are still in Dunkirk, I think Jerry still has his club,,Bill was quite a guy as was Sam Wong from Toronto, I did follow bill to New Mexico and had my own school in the town of Dixon ,in an old church.It is funny that some of the people who trade on Bill’s name actually spent so little time with him or none at all,I remember Art Sykes too, met him once, Didn’t see him after he and Bill had their falling out because Bill forbid him to teach preferring Artis Simmonds, Like many of the so called masters of Seong wah, they sort of made it up as they went along . Bill had a habit of teaching different things to different people,I think I was the only one who learned the lion and dragon because it fit me better. Never had anyone who wanted to spend the time to learn it so guess It’ll die with me. Some of the techniques took years to master and I thank Bill every day as little facets present themselves years later..I wish all of you good luck And though many of your masters never met met Bill he was quite a guy. Yours Terry or Quo Tzan if you want to split hairs

      1. I find your post bullshit and your claims concerning master sykes insulting

        I have never heard of you and I have been in the same room with both grandmaster reeder and master sykes
        I am from Toronto and many many people were taught kung fu by master sykes and grandmaster reeders was the head of the Liu seong and still is in spirit

        It’s totally false what you have implied concerning master art sykes and I also believe it is disrespectful to the late grandmaster reeders

      2. I have never heard of you but I find you post concerning Art Sykes untrue and misleading

        I have been in the same room with both master sykes and master reeders and grandmaster reeders was always the grandmaster and the head of the liu seong royal kunfu fu

        I knew Sam Wong too and I am ifrom toronto were grandmaster Reeders lived and taught before moving to the states

        I was at the tournament in the 70s meet grandmaster Reeders sat and talked with him for
        Quite a while he was the top of the liu seong and it was and has been known for many years thaT Art Sykes was his student.

        Master Sykes has taught many many people
        And your post is misleading and untrue

        IT IS DISRESPECTFUL TO US ALL THAT HAVE SPENT YEARS UNDER BOTH Grandmaster reeders and Master Sykes
        SO MAYBE YOU SHOULD KEEP YOUR STORIES AND FANTASIES TO YOURSELF AND DO NOT POST ANYTHING MORE CONCERNING MASTER SYKES AS YOU COULD NOT POSSIBLY KNOW HIM DEMONSTRATED BY YOUR ABOVE POST

        BUT THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HAVE BENIFITED FRO. master Sykes teachings and the Grandmaster was always his teacher and head of the organization

        Apparently you are the only one that does not know this maybe you have other reasons for making your false claims

        Peace to your sir try to post the truth and not misleading post about Master Sykes who has passed away its like a cheapskate

        Get a life it’s better than making inappropriate post about someone thT has passed

        GRANDMASTER REEDERS

        1. I trained under Sifu Wayne Dollack in Las Vegas 1973 – 1975. Sifu Dollack invited Master Sykes to one of our classes at Nellis AFB. We were 10 students whom were all impressed by Master Sykes execution of a kuntao kata sequence we had been learning that week. Our brief but inspiring meeting with Master Sykes was truly unforgettable.

  10. I did a lot of heritage research and I placed Willem in my ‘Zeeland’ tree going back to 1728. There’s no royal blood in the male lineage. As for his mother Christina Wieling I only know she was half Indonesian. There are a lot of Chinese immigrants who choose Indonesian names. So, it’s quite possible she was a mix of Dutch and Chinese blood and it makes it also difficult to find out where her lineage originates.

  11. Hi. I’m am a fourth Gen Kuntaoist. My name is Daniel Calabrese 2nd. My father was definitely one of Tiny’s (Ed Sealy) best students at the time he trained. He often lost to Tommy Drake, snd also, often won. I can’t say definitively who was better because I wasn’t there. At first he trained with Tommy Drake, and my Uncle Frank Palmieri. Then he brought in Randy Elliott. Who I started my training with in 1998. I have trained everyday for at least 20 years and I’m very open to get together with respect to our system, with anyone who is also looking to continue learning.

  12. Anyone in the Jamestown NY area who has NOT studied with Ed Sealy, Guy Savelli or his students, or any of the many students of students of Reeders please contact me at gullyfoyle@inorbit.com.
    I know Reeders taught different aspects, forms/styles to different people/groups. I’m looking for Sam Lummia (sp?) or other private students. Maybe even some from the same group as Sealy and Sikes.
    I have seen a few of you mention obscure forms styles you learned in the area and may be “rusty” on.
    I’m 63, a bit damaged physically and wish to train privately.
    I do not want to compete. I don’t want a belt. I don’t want a class full of people.
    Just nice and quiet teaching an old man can handle.
    Preference would be the more obscure materials Reeders taught.
    I have previously spoken with various, what I consider conmen, who attempted to associate themselves with Ed Sealy or others from the Reeders school.
    Obviously some type of proof or damn good ma will be necessary to weed out those of undesirable character.
    I will accept those trained by the Bradigans. But myself am not interested in meeting them, I have had contact with them in the past thus am aware of the quality of skill.
    I’m not interested in traveling very far due to certain restraints.
    Let’s exchange some e-mails and see where it all leads.
    Thank You

  13. My name is Master Tom Carr & l have studied &taught martial art since 1960 at the age of 12. I was born & raised in Erie pa & lived & worked her all my life! Iam retired from a 31 year career in law enforcement & operated a very successful dojo & well known tournament ” Tom Carr’s Battle of lake Erie ” for over 25 years ! As a teenager in the mid 1960’s l heard very interesting things about Master Reeders including a story of really legendary status. It was said that Master Reeders was a resistant fighter against the Japanese during world War 11& that he single handedly killed like over 100 enemy in hand to hand fighting & was dubbed (if memory serves me) ” The Red Ant ” l believe there was a story about him in a magazine of sorts about these explotes! Needless to say his legend proceeded him
    In every way & yes you are very right about how the stories of who he taught & or fought are so convoluted its impossible to know what’s true or false!
    I’ve seem about three times in my life& got to speak to him on occasion. He actually attended one of my tournaments along with Master Art Sykes who l got to know fairly well as he lived in Erie for several years! Master Reeders even did an impromptu demonstration which l must say was very basic & not particularly interesting, l guess we all expected much more from such a legendary figure, but again to his credit it was very impromptu! Master Sykes provided the more entertaining part of the demo. Master Reeders was totally right in his feeling about the biggest phoney of all Guy Savelli this guy actually had a kiosk at our local mall with young followers of his stopping shoppers trying to get them to join his cult, they were telling shoppers that they have been trained to turn themselves into tigers with their chi , also they could likewise stop an attack with just thier minds, that is until l told the young man l would count to 3 & punch him in the face ! I went to his dojo & confronted sevelli about his claims & informed him we would not license him to operate & to cease & desist ( myself and several other Black Belts were the make up of a board to investigate alleged phoneys) he was gone from our city within a week ! This phoney has made a lucrative living all his life & may still be for pushing this crazy. Yes he moved to Cleveland and l still see videos of him on you tube, no wonder Master Reeders rejected him ! Many people over the years have claimed to have studied under him, ln reality l believe he taught very few ! This all adds to your theory that knowone really knows the truth about anything, only ” The Red Ant ” knows !

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